Repeat

Back in the day, the first time I was a freshman I had an amazing Bible teacher (yeah I went to a Christian high school). He was really intelligent and the year following taught a local university. One of the things he taught me a lot. One of the things he would repeat over and over again was, "ask questions of the text and answer them with the text" Now I know that probably makes no sense because it made no sense to me. But it means when you are reading develop those questions in your mind and try to answer them with the text itself before seeking an outside source. Sometimes the answers to your questions can be within the work you are reading. Another thing I learned that year is to always pay attention to thing repeated.

I noticed a couple of phrases repeated throughout the Iliad and I suppose they could be repeated because they rhyme in Greek since this is a poem in Greek, but I kind of think the reason they are repeated so often is because they are important. I will share two of my favorites.

"Hera, of the white arms" I read this as I am sure you did at least fifty times through out the past couple of chapters. I started to wonder why on earth would Homer repeat this phrase over and over again. Last Thursday we discussed beauty within the Iliad and that really made me think about this phrase. I realized when any woman is referred to as "so and so of the white arms" they are a woman of exquisite beauty. And thus I began to wonder why would that particular characteristic signify true beauty. After further thought I realized that mortals often worked outside and therefore would have tan and possibly sun burned skin. Those of noble descent (i.e. Helen) and most obviously gods and goddesses did not spend their time toiling in the hot sun and therefore had the beauty and status of white arms. Isn't it interesting, the very thing many women strive for in the United States, the tan beautiful body would have been seemingly unappealing to the people of Ancient Greece?

"and they obeyed him" This phrase actually began to annoy me....Clearly, if the reader continues to read the god or person who has been given an instruction carries out the instruction and therefore obeys. Why is this statement needed? I still don't exactly know but from what I can figure, the gods especially were very...opinionated (: and stubborn. So when one god (namely Zeus) said to another god "Go. Do this" most of the time the order was followed but sometimes it wasn't. As we see Hera multiple times opposing Zeus' ruling to stay away from the Trojan War. After Zeus initially gave that order the phrase "and they obeyed him" is not found. So maybe the reason that obedience is so stressed is because it is not as common within the daily interaction between the gods.

P.S. I also commented on Mallory's Post, it was quite long.... just sayin (: haha

Love, Mildred/Betsy Bevers/Rachel

True Honor

I'm writing this because it's an assignment and cause I am going to be graded on it, not because I am passionate about the subject or have any interest in it outside of an A. I wonder how many soldiers/fighters/warriors (whatever they were called) felt the same way. "I have to go fight in this war because it is what my king/the gods want me to do. Because it is what is expected of me, not because I love to kill people and take all that they have; not because I really, really want to get Menelaus his girl back." How many of them actually cared if Helen and Menelaus ended up together? How many of the men there were really wishing, every minute of every day for the past nine years, to be back with their family, with their true wives? They didn't choose for Helen to run off with Paris, why should they be passionate about someone else's problem? Why should they have to lose their lives for Menelaus? I don't just mean lose their alive-ness/beating heart, I mean them seeing their children play in the mud (or whatever kids did back then with out video games) or their wives give birth to a kid she was pregnant with when they left. We talked in class about the men wanting to be remembered and honored, and one way they gain that honor is to do something "great" in battle. To me, dying in a war or killing some big shot in a war, for pride's sake, isn't honorable. If Menelaus went alone and fought and died, whilst declaring his love for Helen and trying to win her back - now that would be honorable. But to take his entire people with him to be slaughtered for the sake of his own selfish desires, is totally dishonorable. And to be a puppet to go along with it, to me, is also dishonorable. If those "puppets" were ordered to fight (I'm still not really sure how it works; ya know, who orders who.) obviously they could have prayed to some god who would listen and gotten their way, right? I mean, hasn't every other character in the book done so?

I commented on Mallory's.

What do we want? A girl worth fighting for. :)

Ok, so before I get a whole bunch of weird looks in class Thursday, my title is from the Disney movie Mulan and mainly I just like to have cute titles. Oh, and it's also not just about having a significant other worth fighting for. So here we go.
So, today in class we talked in pretty good detail about the motive for this war, greed, anger, revenge...and the like. We also talked in great detail about honor. But I can't help but wonder, is that all? Yes, I would say for Agamemnon the motive is greed and for Menolaus it's probably revenge but what about for the true heroes? I would even say that the real heroes were pretty greatly motivated by honor but is that all? That is my question.
The answer I've come to (so far...definitely subject to change as we're not done with the book yet) is no. I believe a great motivating factor behind it for the characters we actually like is love! Furthermore, is that what makes a great warrior? Is love the driving force behind the epic heroes, even those today?
My first point, that there is more to it than surface answers, lies in the text such as in book 6 where Hektor is telling his wife that the reason he will go fight is because he refuses to see her taken away in to slavery. He will fight to his very death for her good. Sounds like a certain Bible verse I know...hmmm. Something along the lines of, "Greater love has none that this, that a man lay down his life for his friend." (John 15:13)
And again, Achilleus doesn't say he's fighting for love, but I believe it's one of the reasons he refuses to fight for a while. He's hurt. He even says that they took the "bride of his heart." What man would use that terminology if he wasn't head over heels in love?
Both are fueled (in my opinion though Achilleus is definitely arguable) by their love for their women, but also Hektor for his love of country and Achilleus for his love of the fight.
My second point, is love (or passion) the driving force behind great warriors? I would say yes. Isn't God and country the mantra of military today? Is it love for keeping families safe? Sure, I would say so. What about for love of country? Yes. I think a warrior needs something to fight for, and I think anything worth fighting for, is worth loving.

Today's discussion

From today's discussion, i just wanted to post my opinion about Achilles fate and whether or not he gets to choose this fate or if it is chosen for him. I believe that he does get to choose his fate, but there will be results and consequences from whichever he chooses. I think that if he chose to go home and not fight again that really portrays nothing at all. Everything he ever fought for would be for nothing. If, however, he chose to fight one last time, knowing that his fate will be death, it will aslo show the hero in him, the fact that he fought for something, even if he gets nothing in turn, other than dying. He will have died trying and i think that is the best way for him to make a name for himself. IF he went home, he would live with his family and others will remember him as nothing, mabye even recognized as coward. But if he chose to fight, he will be remembered for trying in the face of death.

Also, i had a question, how does Helen and the others who are considered "war-prizes" feel about being fought over? and if they love one warrior over the other, couldn't she just choose the one she prefers to be with? or is that a matter of her position as a war prize?

p.s (i commented on Will's post "Starting the Iliad discussion correctly")

Versus God

"Come ride with me through the veins of history,
I'll show you the god who falls asleep on the job."

-Knights of Cydonia, Muse

If there is one thing that The Iliad has shown me about Greek society, it is that, unlike Jesus, who was both completely human and sinless, the Greek gods were far more prone to human folly than actual humans. It would also seem to me that Homer, in a further attempt to humanize the gods, pits the humans themselves against the deities and vice versa. Indeed, the Achaians in particular find themselves in a literal and spiritual war with god, an enemy that would be supposedly unstoppable were it not for the fact that the gods are so human.

A god is a being that, traditionally, is omnipotent and omniprescent, meaning that they hold the keys of life and death. Therefore, god=destiny. This realization hits the Achaians close to home when they realize that Zeus himself, the most powerful of the gods, holder of the golden scales of fate, is against them. Can you image the despair that they must have felt? Sure, Hera and Athena were on their side, but Zeus was the ultimate authority and far greater than the other gods. His word was law, and it quickly becomes clear that his will is against the Achaians. Even the god of the Sun and the god of war turn against them!

The Achains often consider giving up the fight and just going home, tired of trying to fight against not only a extremely powerful army but one that is backed by Zeus himself, who is determined to bring about their utter destruction. In my mind, an interesting happens in this moment of despair, which is about Ch.5-6. With such fickle and unfaithful gods controlling their destiny, the Achains realize they can no longer trust the deities and attempt to grab the bull of their fates by the proverbial horns, so to speak. With no certain destiny, they fight to make their own, a concept that actually strengthens their resolve and gives them a new reason to fight other than to simply regain Helen. Indeed, it is with the abscence of the gods that the Achaians actually tend to gain ground, suggesting that the Achaians' resolve to defy destruction and win the war despite the will of god works for the most part.

So what does this suggest about Homer? Just because he lived in that era of time doesn't necessarily mean that he believed in the gods. He may have been of the type that believed in making his own destiny and secretly attempted to show that man does not need gods to live, making them appear petty and traitorous to his Greek audience. It may be that Homer attempted to shake the faith of believers in the eternal justice of Olympic gods by simultaneously suggesting that their gods were not just after all and showing the benefits of secular humanism, the belief that we all must make our own way and that there is no defined destiny for the individual. He promotes this with the metaphor of the Achaians versus Zeus. This is the same struggle that athiests and the faithful (in Christ, Allah, you name it) have fought since the founding of their respective faiths. It is the battle of choice vs. sovreignty, of unknown vs. destiny, of our eternal desire to be in control vs. the idea of a being that chooses our circumstances.

It is the battle of Man vs. God, and it's in The Iliad. If you would like to add something to this, or if you think I'm full of crap (which isn't out of the question), please feel free to comment.

BTW, I also commented on Samantha, Not Sam's post, Polytheism on the Brain, Ugh.

Where there's dark water, there's... uh... dark water.

Do you know what I envision in my mind when I'm reading the fighting scenes in 'The Iliad'?

Two big guys standing on opposite sides of a field, with a big ditch in-between them. (Yeah yeah, there was a scene like that already in the book; I thought this up before I read it!) In front of them is an armada of minions reflecting the emotions of whichever big guy they stand with. When one says boo, boom goes the dynamite, and off go the minions to kill each other, while the big guys are left to either procrastinate on making the next decision, or to plan out a confrontation later on that will catch everyone's attention.

And then there's the gods. They do stuff 'n junk to the mortals for awhile, big daddy Zeus says 'baaad immortals', and the gods more or less keep their mouths shut -- which does not mean they change their actions, of course. I kept expecting someone like Apollo to scoff at Zeus, then there be a loud confrontation that tests Zeus' position. Of course, his power is well-known by almost everyone it seems, so there is apparently some viability to the reluctantness the gods have to do or say differently.

But poor, poor Odysseus... talk about having some bad luck during Book 11. At least some guys eventually show up to help out, but even then, they have to make a speech beforehand.

Oh well. Let me add some structure to this blogature real quick before calling it a day.

From the class discussions we've had so far, and just from my own take on the first twelve books, it's interesting to see how the gods and the mortals have their own social structures, but how they correlate in various ways. As already mentioned, morals is one aspect. Then there's also how they like to plan and conspire, fight, be involved in some way with others' affairs. Curiosity? Noseyness, in my opinion, because it seems the gods can view what's going on all of the time anyway.

So I'll leave off with a question:

Why do the gods bother with the affairs of the mortals? Is it because it's their duty as 'gods', or is it truly because of similar reasons for why the mortals get involved in others' affairs?



P.S. Posted a comment on Will's blog 'Starting the Iliad Discussion Correctly'

What Drives You?

Today in class we talked alot about motivations. About what drives specific people in this story.

In my oppinion, Agamemnon seems to be driven by pride. He doesn't really see anyone as equal to him, and beleives that everything that happens ONLY effects himself.
Achilles seems to be driven by pride as well. He does NOT want to go to war, because he has nothing to gain.
Hector is driven by love, as seen in his conversation with his wife. He fights to protect those he loves, and the life that he loves. Even if it means his death.

War are these men's lives. Figuring out their motivations is a huge part of understanding and learning from them.

What about us? Most of us would say that our lives are dedicated to Jesus Christ. But what is the motivation for such a dedication. Is it for our own goals, or is it for something else?

Dive Deep. Drown Willingly.
Jeremy

(Commented on Will's post)

Starting the Iliad Discussion Correctly

[Reposting my comment from the home page]

Okay so just a few comments about chapters 7-12 so far.
These are subject to change, but these are my thoughts at the moment.

1) The gods seem to ALWAYS contradict themselves. This is very evident in Apollo's case when you couple Book Seven, line 40 with line 271. He just can't stand to let the mortals fight alone. None of the gods can. This includes Zeus, who still interferes with combat more indirectly (lightning, etc) even after barring the "lesser" gods from interference.

2) This leads me to, at times, see kleos in only the mortals. Book Seven, line 242: Hektor wants to fight fairly, and strike a blow which may be seen by Aias. Later, a form of respect, which may be seen as honor, can be seen in the break from fighting to respect the dead. They respect the honorable fighters who have died.

3) Zeus gets zero respect, and deservedly so. Apollo deflects an arrow in Book 8, line 311, after receiving orders to refrain from interference. Hera and Athene do not even want to listen to Zeus. They see him as a contradiction within himself. This is completely understandable. Zeus seems to be the only god who will not support a single side. Granted, this may show his wisdom of something the others do not know. However, the mere fact that he also interferes in battle and doesn't hold to his word of punishment for the gods' interference shows me that he has a complete inner contradiction.

Welcome

Hello all,

After much debating within my own mind, and some discussion with the Honors Council, we decided to resort to good ol' Blogspot for our blogs this semester. This is a place for you to share your (original) thoughts about what we've read and/or discussed in class. This is NOT a place for fighting, being rude, spamming or for profanity of any kind.

Therefore, you need to make an account, and follow this blog, then send me the email address that you used for your account(Leave it as a comment), and I will invite you to be an author via email.

YOU WILL BE GRADED ON THESE BLOGS. There is a blog due every Thursday. If there has not been a post from you by Thursday, you will receive a zero. You must also comment on someone else's blog by Thursday. It will count as part of your blog grade. Failure to comment will result in a lower grade for your blog that week. At the end of your own blog, please let us know whose blog you commented on(Person's name and the Post name, please).

I look forward to the discussions that we will have not only in class, but on this board as well. It's going to be....well....Epic.

Your President,
Jeremy Crews